>> IT'S NOT JUST USAID AND HUMANITARIAN AID THAT'S BEEN SLASHED.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS SLASHING DEI EFFORTS.

OUR NEXT GUEST WARNS THIS COULD UNDO SO MUCH.

SHE TELLS MICHEL MARTIN HOW SOME COMPANIES ARE ENDING OR HIDING THEIR INCLUSION EFFORTS.

THE CHILLING AFFECT IT'S HAVING ON WOMEN.

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US, JOANNE LIPMAN.

YOU HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT WOMEN AND WORK AND GENDER AND WORK FOR YEARS.

YOU WROTE AN ESSAY IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" WHERE YOU ARGUE THAT WE ARE ENTERING A MOMENT WHERE EVEN TALKING ABOUT WOMEN AT WORK IS BECOMING TABOO.

YOU OPEN WITH THE LINE, BELIEVE WOMEN WAS THE DEFINING MESSAGE OF THE ME TOO MOVEMENT.

TODAY, THERE'S A NEW ONE.

ERASE WOMEN.

THERE'S A LOT TO TALK ABOUT HERE.

WHAT MADE YOU SAY THAT?

WAS THERE SOMETHING IN PARTICULAR THAT CAUGHT YOUR ATTENTION THAT MADE YOU FEEL THAT?

>> SURE.

I HAVE BEEN COVERING WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE FOR MORE THAN 15 YEARS.

I HAVE ALSO BEEN AN EDITOR AND EDITOR IN CHIEF OF SEVERAL PUBLICATIONS AND ASSIGNED OF A LOT OF COVERAGE OF WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE.

I NOTICED SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAT'S HAPPENING NOW.

THAT IS BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN COVERING THE ISSUES, MY IN BOX IS USUALLY FILLED WITH COMPANIES TALKING ABOUT ALL THESE GREAT INITIATIVES THAT THEY HAVE AND THEY WANT TO BOAST ABOUT IT AND HOW WELL THEY'RE DOING.

SUDDENLY, NOT ONLY DID THEY STOP DOING THAT, NOW THEY ARE AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>> YOU HAVE AN ANECDOTE WHERE YOU DESCRIBE ASKING A ROOM FULL OF HR EXECUTIVES WHETHER THEIR COMPANIES WERE SUPPORTING DIVERSITY EFFORTS.

YOU SAID EVERY HAND GOES UP.

THEN WHEN YOU ASKED WHO WOULD DAUK ASK ABOUT IT PUBLICLY, YOU SAW EVERY HAND GO DOWN.

>> YES.

I TALKED TO SOME OF THE PEOPLE PRIVATELY.

I TALKED TO EXECUTIVE AT MAJOR COMPANIES THAT IN THE PAST HAVE BEEN BANGING THEIR CHESTS ABOUT HOW GREAT THEY ARE WITH DIVERSITY.

AS ONE OF THE EXECUTIVES SAID, THEY SAID, THERE'S FEAR.

IT IS FEAR BOTH BECAUSE OF ALL THE ANTI- DEI MEASURES THAT ARE COMING DOWN FROM WASHINGTON, BUT ALSO FEAR OF RIGHT WING ACTIVISTS, FEAR OF MISOGYNISTIC TROLLS.

THERE'S A FEAR OF EVEN RAISING YOUR HAND A LITTLE BIT.

THERE'S A FEAR OF EVEN MENTIONING THE WORD WOMEN, FEMALE.

SO PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEIR EFFORTS AT ALL.

IT HAS LED TO ABSOLUTELY INSANE KINDS OF EVASIONS THAT WE ARE SEEING.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S A MEDICAL NEWSLETTER THAT ACTUALLY ADVISED ITS READERS TO STRIP OUT THE WORDS FEMALE OR WOMEN FROM ANY OF THEIR RESEARCH GRANTS.

EVEN THOSE THAT HAVE DO WITH WOMEN, OBVIOUSLY.

THERE WAS AN EXAMPLE OF A RESEARCHER WHO WAS LOOKING AT MATERNAL MORTALITY WHO FELT LIKE THEY HAD TO STRIP OUT REFERENCES TO WOMEN IN ORDER TO GET FEDERAL FUNDING FOR THAT.

>> THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE THIS POINT BEFORE.

BUT THEY ARE ARGUING THIS ISN'T SUBSTANTIVE.

SOME PEOPLE SAY IT'S A RHETORICAL OR BRANDING SHIFT BUT NOT A SUBSTANTIVE ROLLBACK.

>> FOR SURE, THERE ARE PEOPLE -- ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE COMMITTED TO EQUITY AND DIVERSITY.

THAT ARE REBRANDING THEIR PROGRAMS.

THE ISSUE IS THAT BECAUSE OF THE FEAR THAT IS OUT THERE, WE ARE SEEING LITERAL ROLLBACKS.

WE SEE REAL IMPACT BECAUSE OF THAT.

WE ARE SEEING THE WAGE GAP HAS INCREASED, GENDER WAGE GAP HAS INCREASED FOR TWO YEARS IN A ROW.

WE ARE SEEING WOMEN DISPROPORTIONALLY PARTICULARLY MOTHERS OF YOUNG CHILDREN LEAVING THE WORKFORCE.

WE ARE SEE ING SOME PRETTY ALARMING THINGS THAT ARE COMING ACTUALLY FROM THE ADMINISTRATION LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE UNITED NATIONS HAS EVERY YEAR PUT OUT THIS SORT OF STATEMENT ABOUT WOMEN AND EQUALITY.

35 NATIONS SIGNED OFF ON THIS EVERY YEAR.

IT'S BASICALLY, WE BELIEVE IN NOT HAVING LEGISLATION AGAINST WOMEN.

IT'S PRETTY BASIC.

FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, THE UNITED STATES REFUSED TO SIGN OFF ON IT CALLING IT GENDER IDIOTOLOGY.

>> ARE YOU SURE IT'S DUE TO ERASING?

>> SO, LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK FOR A SECOND.

DURING COVID, WOMEN LEFT THE WORKFORCE.

THEN WHEN KIDS WENT BACK TO SCHOOL, PEOPLE STARTED WORKING REMOTELY.

WOMEN POURED INTO THE WORKFORCE.

WE HAD A HISTORIC HIGH NUMBER OF WOMEN PROPELLED BY MOTHERS OF YOUNG CHILDREN WHO WANTED TO WORK OR WHO NEEDED TO WORK WHO WERE ABLE TO WORK IN A WAY THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO BEFORE BECAUSE THE ABILITY TO WORK GENERALLY HYBRID REMOTE, NOT FULLY BUT HYBRID REMOTE WAS A HUGE PLUS.

WHAT'S HAPPENED IS IN THAT CASE, YOU HAVE THE SITUATION WHERE ONE OF THE FIRST EXECUTIVE ORDERS TO COME OUT OF THIS ADMINISTRATION WAS THAT EVERYBODY HAS TO BE BACK AT WORK FIVE DAYS A WEEK.

THAT GAVE THE EXCUSE TO A LOT OF COMPANIES THROUGHOUT TO SAY, OKAY, EVERYBODY HAS TO BE BACK IN THE OFFICE.

THAT'S THE PRIMARY ISSUE FOR MOTHERS OF YOUNG KIDS.

I WANT TO GO BACK TO THIS ISSUE OF ERASING.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS SOMETHING I HAVE NOT SEEN BEFORE OR WE HAVEN'T SEEN IN MANY YEARS WHICH IS THERE'S AN EMBARRASSMENT TO TALK ABOUT AND A FEAR OF TALKING ABOUT WOMEN, PERIOD, BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU A TARGET.

WE HAVE SEEN, YES, WE HAVE SEEN THIS IS TOP DOWN ADMINISTRATION WHERE YOU HAVE SEEN TRUMP ALLIES WHO BLAME WOMEN FOR EVERYTHING.

THEY ARE BLAMED FOR THE CALIFORNIA WILDFIRES.

THEY ARE BLAMED FOR THE PLANE CRASH.

WOMEN GET BLAMED.

PETE HEGSETH HAS BEEN FIRING FEMALE OFFICERS.

WHAT CONCERNED ME WAS LESS THAT AND MORE OF THE BOTTOM UP.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE AFRAID TO EVEN UTTER THE WORD WOMEN TO TALK AT ALL ABOUT WOMEN FOR FEAR THAT THEY WILL BE TARGETED.

THEY ARE ACTUALLY GOING FURTHER THAN THEY NEED TO, FURTHER THAN THEY WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION IS ASKING THEM TO DO.

THERE ARE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE DE-FUNDING THINGS LIKE THE EMPLOYEE RESOURCE GROUPS WHICH ARE GROUPS CENTERED ON PEOPLE WHO ARE WOMEN, PEOPLE OF COLOR, LGBTQ PEOPLE.

THESE GROUPS ARE LEGAL AS LONG AS ANYONE CAN JOIN , BUT THEY ARE GETTING CLOSED DOWN BECAUSE COMPANIES ARE AFRAID THAT SIMPLY HAVING THEM WILL MAKE THEM A TARGET.

I THINK THAT IS WHAT REALLY CONCERNS ME.

WHAT ACTUALLY GOT ME STARTED ON THIS WAS I WAS JUST INTERESTED IN HOW WOMEN IN THE WORKPLACE WERE DOING A YEAR AFTER THE ADMINISTRATION STARTED CRACKING DOWN ON DEI, ON DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION.

AT FIRST, I THOUGHT WE WOULD FIND POSITIVE RESULTS, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT OF ORGANIZATIONS THAT MAYBE DID AWAY WITH THE SCHOLARSHIP OR THE TRAINING PROGRAM THAT'S ONLY FOR WOMEN, BUT THEY OPENED UP OTHER PROGRAMS THAT ARE ACTUALLY FOR EVERYONE BUT DISPROPORTIONATELY HELP, BOOST THE FORTUNES OF WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR.

THINGS LIKE MENTORSHIP PROGRAMS THAT ARE OPEN TO EVERYONE.

THINGS LIKE CHILDCARE WHICH ACTUALLY HELPS MEN AS MUCH AS WOMEN.

CHILDCARE ASSISTANCE.

THERE WAS A PIECE BY A COUPLE OF SOCIOLOGISTS.

THEY WROTE THIS PIECE NAMING SEVERAL COMPANIES AND PROGRAMS THAT THEY HAVE PUT IN PLACE THAT WERE FOR EVERYONE AND HAD VERY POSITIVE OUTCOMES FOR WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR.

THEY NAMED A COUPLE OF COMPANIES, INCLUDING IBM, WALMART, THE GAP.

I THOUGHT, THIS IS REALLY INTERESTING.

SO I CALLED ALL OF THOSE COMPANIES TO SAY, HEY, CAN YOU ELABORATE ON THAT?

NONE OF THEM WANTED TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>> AT LEAST THEY'RE DOING IT, WHICH LEADS ME TO MY OTHER QUESTION HERE.

IS THERE A SUBSTANTIVE RESULT OF NOT WANTING TO TALK ABOUT WOMEN OR TAKING WOMEN AS A SORT OF SUBJECT OF CONCERN OFF THE TABLE?

>> WHAT WE FOUND SO FAR IS IT'S EARLY DAYS.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS WE'RE NO LONGER REPORTING A LOT OF THE NUMBERS.

IT'S A LITTLE HARD TO TELL.

MAJOR COMPANIES HAVE STOPPED.

THEY USED TO TALK ABOUT WORKFORCE DIVERSITY DATA.

THE SHARE OF THE S&P 500 COMPANIES THAT TALK ABOUT HOW MANY --DISCLOSED HOW MANY WOMEN ARE ON THE BOARD HAS FALLEN BY ABOUT A THIRD.

THE COMPANIES THAT USED TO SHARE ETHNIC, RACIAL AND GENDER DIVERSITY OF THEIR WORKFORCES AND IMPORTANTLY OF THEIR WORKFORCE DIVIDED BY JOB LEVEL, SO YOU CAN SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE IN MANAGEMENT, THEY STOPPED REPORTING IT.

WE ARE A LITTLE FLYING BLIND TO SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE.

THE PROBLEM IS IF YOU ARE NOT SEEING IT AND YOU ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT IT, IT'S VERY, VERY EASY FOR THAT PROGRESS TO REVERSE.

I NOTICED, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S A REPORT ON WOMEN IN THE WORKFORCE.

I NOTICED THIS YEAR THAT THE NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS FELL BY MORE THAN HALF, EVEN THOUGH THE PARTICIPANT COMPANIES ARE ANONYMOUS.

IT FELL BY MORE THAN HALF.

THE CORPORATE EQUALITY INDEX, SAME THING.

PARTICIPANTS FELL MORE THAN IN HALF.

EVEN SO, THE REPORT FOUND THAT WOMEN FELT LIKE THEY HAD LESS SUPPORT AND FEWER CAREER OPPORTUNITIES.

AGAIN, I THINK WHAT I WOULD SAY ON THE POSITIVE SIDE IS THERE ARE LOTS OF PROGRAMS THAT CORPORATIONS CAN EMBRACE THAT ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL THAT ARE OUT THERE FOR EVERYONE THAT ACTUALLY HAVE A REALLY POSITIVE IMPACT.

WE DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A DECLINE IN THE OPPORTUNITY FOR WOMEN AND FOR PEOPLE OF COLOR.

BUT IF YOU DON'T COUNT IT, IF YOU DON'T TALK ABOUT IT, IT'S REALLY EASY TO BACKSLIDE.

>> THE IRONY IS THAT, THE PRESIDENT -- PRESIDENT TRUMP ON ONE HAND HAS GIVEN WOMEN A NUMBER OF IMPORTANT REALLY CRITICAL ROLES IN HIS ADMINISTRATION.

THEY ARE THE FIRST PEOPLE HE FIRED WHEN HE WAS --IT'S INTERESTING TO CONTEMPLATE.

>> THE CONVERSATION AT THE TOP IS ONE THING.

THE FEAR THAT IS REALLY LEADING TO THIS BACKLASH AGAINST ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH WOMEN IS REALLY CONCERNING.

YOU SEE UNIVERSITIES THAT NO LONGER WILL TALK ABOUT THE WOMEN'S CENTER ON - -THEY WILL TALK ABOUT CULTURAL CENTERS.

BUT THEY ARE TAKING OUT WORDS LIKE WOMEN.

LOOK AT ALL THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT USED TO SUPPORT --YOU USED TO SEE ADS FOR WOMEN'S HISTORY MONTH.

YOU WOULD BE FORGIVEN IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW WE FINISHED WOMEN'S HISTORY MONTH BECAUSE IT WAS SO QUIET.

THERE WERE --I THINK IT WAS OHIO UNIVERSITY THAT HAD EVERY SINGLE YEAR THIS BIG CELEBRATING WOMEN EVENT.

THEY CANCELED IT AT THE LAST MINUTE.

WE ARE SEEING -- WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS VERY CONCERNING FOR WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN.

>> PLAYING DEVIL'S ADVOCATE.

IS IT REALLY WRONG FOR PUBLIC FACING ORGANIZATIONS , PUBLICLY TRADED ORGANIZATIONS TO BE RESPONSIVE TO THE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT?

THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT THEY WILL SEEK RETRIBUTION AGAINST ENTITIES THAT THEY DON'T LIKE.

>> THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN COMPANIES THAT ARE CONTINUING TO DO THE WORK OF DIVERSITY, NOT TALKING ABOUT IT.

VERSUS THOSE WHO ARE GOING FURTHER THAN WHAT IS BEING ASKED OF THEM.

COMPANIES THAT ARE DOING THINGS THAT ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL.

PEOPLE, RESEARCHERS, MEDICAL RESEARCHERS WHO ARE DOING THINGS THAT ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL AND YET ARE FEELING THAT THEY CAN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE LEGAL.

IN OTHER WORDS, THEY ARE GOING FURTHER THAN WHAT IS BEING ASKED OF THEM.

I WILL ALSO SAY THAT WE SAW A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF PERFORMATIVE NONSENSE OUT OF COMPANIES.

THAT HAS DEFINITELY GONE AWAY.

ONE OF THE INTERESTING ISSUES IS THAT PARTICULARLY AFTER THE 2020 MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD WHERE COMPANIES CAME OUT -- THEY COMMITTED BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

THEY MADE BIG GRAND, SWEEPING STATEMENTS.

MANY OF THE COMPANIES WERE -- IT WAS PERFORMATIVE.

THEY WERE OVER THEIR SKIS AND PROMISING THINGS THEY WERE NOT GOING TO DELIVER.

THEY WERE POURING MONEY INTO THINGS THAT REALLY HAD ZERO IMPACT.

A LOT OF THAT HAS GONE AWAY.

THAT'S ALL FOR THE GOOD.

I THINK THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE STILL COMMITTED TO DIVERSITY ARE STILL DOING IT.

THEY ARE COMMITTED.

THEY ARE JUST DOING IT QUIETLY.

>> WHO SHOULD BE CALLED OUT IN YOUR OPINION?

>> I DO THINK THAT ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE GOING WAY TOO FAR, THAT ARE RETREATING MORE THAN THEY HAVE TO ARE PUTTING THE REST OF US IN A FRAUGHT AND POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS POSITION.

I HEARD FROM SO MANY PEOPLE AFTER THIS PIECE CAME OUT WHO ARE LIKE, WHO IS GOING TO STAND UP TO THIS?

WE HAVE SEEN THAT ORGANIZATIONS THAT DO STAND UP, WHEN WE HAVE SEEN IT IN OTHER ARENAS, WITH LAW FIRMS THAT HAVE STOOD UP AND SOME OF THE UNIVERSITIES THAT HAVE STOOD UP TO SOME OF THE ATTACKS THAT HAVE GONE TOO FAR, THEY HAVE BEEN SUCCESSFUL.

THERE ARE COMPANIES, LARGE COMPANIES THAT ARE STILL COMMITTED TO A DIVERSE WORKFORCE, EQUALITY.

WHICH DOESN'T MEAN GIVING PREFERENCE TO WOMEN OR TO PEOPLE OF COLOR.

IT SIMPLY MEANS GIVING PREFERENCE TO TALENT AND NOT FIRING BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE OR ETHNICITY OR GENDER.

>> COLLECTIVE RESPONSE IS DIFFICULT UNLESS YOU FIND PEOPLE WHO AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THESE SETS OF ISSUES.

INDIVIDUALLY, ARE THERE THINGS PEOPLE COULD BE DOING?

>> YES.

FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO SAY THIS IS NOT A WOMEN ISSUE.

THIS IS REALLY A SOCIAL --SOCIETY ISSUE AND DEMOCRACY ISSUE.

AT HEART, THIS IS A DEMOCRACY ISSUE.

LOOK AT THE AUTOCRAT PLAYBOOK, WHICH MANY SCHOLARS HAVE TALKED ABOUT, ONE OF THE MAJOR FEATURES OF THE AUTOCRAT'S PLAYBOOK IS THE REPRESSION OF WOMEN, ERASING OF WOMEN.

THE REASON IS THAT WHEN WOMEN MOBILIZE, THEY --WOMEN ARE OBVIOUSLY A LITTLE MORE THAN HALF OF THE POPULATION.

WHEN THEY DO MOBILIZE, THEY TEND TO MOBILIZE IN THE DIRECTION OF EGALITARIANISM AND DEMOCRACY.

IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE AUTOCRATS TO PUT THAT DOWN.

THAT'S ALSO RELATED TO THIS ISSUE OF PRONATALISM THAT WOMEN SHOULD BE HOME HAVING KIDS.

I WOULD SAY THAT THE PREMISE THAT THIS IS A WOMEN PROBLEM, I WOULD REJECT.

>> BEFORE I LET YOU GO, AS A PERSON WHO COVERED THE BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT FOR YEARS, WHAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT TO COMPANIES ABOUT WHY THIS IS IN THEIR BEST INTEREST TO DO?

NOT JUST TO RESIST BUT TO DO WHAT THEY ACTUALLY SAY THEY WERE DOING BEFORE, WHICH IS TO OPEN THE S AND MAKE SURE THE BEST PEOPLE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO THRIVE AND CONTRIBUTE.

>> CAN I JUST EMPHASIZE EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID?

THE BEST PEOPLE.

YOU WANT THE BEST PEOPLE.

EVERY PIECE OF RESEARCH SHOWS YOU THAT DIVERSE ORGANIZATIONS OUTPERFORM HOMOGENOUS ORGANIZATIONS.

THERE HAS BEEN RESEARCH ON THIS.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE THINGS IMPROVED WITH DIVERSE WORKFORCES.

THERE WAS A PIECE OF RESEARCH THAT FOUND THAT A DIVERSE WILL MORE ACCURATELY SOLVE THE MURDER MYSTERY THAN A HOMOGENOUS GROUP.

I BELIEVE EVERY CEO, EVERY CFO, CHIEF FINANCIAL OFFICE, IT IS IN THEIR INTEREST AND THEY SHOULD BET HELD TO ACCOUNT BECAUSE WE KNOW THE DIVERSE ORGANIZATIONS PERFORM BETTER.

>> JOANNE LIPMAN THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.