♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THIS ADMINISTRATION CANNOT CREDIBLY TELL AMERICANS TO PREPARE FOR DEATH IN HAITI WHILE CLAIMING THAT HAITI IS SAFE ENOUGH FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TO BE DEPORTED THERE.

>> FEAR IN AMERICA WITH I.C.E.

RAMPING UP RAIDS, AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HAITIANS NOW FACING DEPORTATION BACK TO THEIR RAVAGED COUNTRY.

LIEUTENANT GENERAL RUSSEL HONORE JOINS ME WITH HIS PLEA AGAINST THIS POLICY.

>>> THEN -- >> ALL OF GAZA IS THREATENED AND UNDER FIRE.

NOBODY WANTS TO BE DISPLACED.

THERE IS NO SAFE PLACE TO GO.

>> WITH ELECTIONS LOOMING IN ISRAEL, WHAT ABOUT THE FATE OF PALESTINIANS IN GAZA AND THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK?

I ASK ISRAELI JOURNALIST NIR HASSON.

>>> PLUS -- >> THE SYSTEM WE HAVE A IS SYSTEMATICALLY PRODUCING OLDER POLITICIANS.

AND SO WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO CORRECT IT.

>> GERONTOCRACY IN AMERICA.

HOW THE OLD ARE HOARDING POWER AND WEALTH.

IS AMERICA RULED BY OLD PEOPLE?

AND HOW TO GET YOUNGER PEOPLE INTO POWER.

♪ ♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO."

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

PRESIDENT TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN IS ACCELERATING.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HAITIANS ARE NOW LIVING IN FEAR AND BRACING FOR DEPORTATION.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS REVOKED THEIR TEMPORARY PROTECTED STATUS, REMOVING THEIR RIGHT TO LIVE AND WORK IN THE UNITED STATES.

HAITI IS PLAGUED BY VIOLENCE AND LAWLESSNESS, WITH STAGGERING LEVELS OF POVERTY AS WELL.

TRUMP'S OWN STATE DEPARTMENT ADVISES AMERICANS MUST NOT VISIT THAT COUNTRY.

OHIO'S REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR MIKE DeWINE TELLS THE ADMINISTRATION, QUOTE, YOU'D BE SENDING PEOPLE BACK TO HELL.

>> GOING TO HAITI, THEY'RE NOT SAFE.

IF THEY ARE NOT CRIMINAL, WHY WOULD YOU SEND THEM BACK?

IF YOU STICK SOME CRIMINAL PEOPLE AND SEND THEM BACK, I DON'T HAVE PROBLEM WITH THAT BUT PEOPLE COME FORWARD, TO WORK, TO LIVING WITH THE FAMILY, WHY THEY DO THAT TO THEM?

>> IT DON'T MAKE NO SENSE HAPPEN LIKE THAT.

NO SENSE, NO ANY SENSE TO HAPPEN LIKE THAT.

I'M A CITIZEN, AMERICAN.

BUT I'M -- THE SHAME FOR THE PEOPLE.

>> MY FIRST GUEST TONIGHT DESCRIBES HAITI AS A WAR ZONE AS I.C.E.

AND THE UNITED STATES GETS READY TO DEPORT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HAITIANS IN THE UNITED STATES.

RETIRED LIEUTENANT GENERAL RUSSEL HONORE IS WELL-KNOWN TO MANY AMERICANS FOR HIS LEADERSHIP OFF HURRICANE KATRINA, AS WELL AS MANAGING INTERNATIONAL RELIEF OPERATIONS IN THE CARIBBEAN.

HE IS ALSO AN EXPERT ON DISASTER PREPAREDNESS, AND HAS ADVISED HAITIAN ORGANIZATIONS.

GENERAL HONORE, WELCOME, AND THANKS FOR JOINING US FROM BATON ROUGE.

CAN I START BY ASKING YOU, GENERAL, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE CRITICIZED, THIS LATEST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION RAMPING UP OF THE DEPORTATIONS, BUT IT WAS TEMPORARY PROTECTED STATUS, WHICH IMPLIES, AS THE ADMINISTRATION POINTS OUT, THAT AT ANY EVENT, THIS STATUS WAS GOING TO EXPIRE.

WHAT ISSUE DO YOU HAVE WITH THAT?

>> WELL, THIS GROUP OF 350,000 PEOPLE CAME TO THE UNITED STATES AS A RESULT OF A NATURAL DISASTER AFTER THE EARTHQUAKE, GOVERNMENT DISRUPTION IN HAITI, GANG VIOLENCE.

THEY WERE ALLOWED INTO THE UNITED STATES ON A TEMPORARY STATUS.

AND THE RECENT SUPREME COURT DECISION TO TERMINATE THOSE.

THE PROBLEM IS THEY CAME IN GRADUALLY, BUT THE TENET OF THE GOVERNMENT NOW IS TO IMMEDIATELY START DEPORTING 350,000 PEOPLE INTO WHAT CAN BE DESCRIBED AS A WAR ZONE.

THE STATE DEPARTMENT HAS DECLARED DON'T GO TO HAITI.

IT'S NOT SAFE.

BUT THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY WANT TO SEND 350,000 PEOPLE.

IT'S NOT HOW WE -- WHEN WE MTPS, IT'S HOW WE DO IT.

WE HEARD FROM PEOPLE IN COUNTRY THAT ARE HAITIAN, THEY'RE PREPARED FOR 3,000 PEOPLE TO BE DEPORTED MONDAY.

CAMP HAITIAN BY ALL ASSESSMENT CAN'T HANDLE 3,000 PEOPLE IN ONE DAY.

AND IN HAITI, YOU'VE GOT OVER A MILLION PEOPLE DISPLACED BECAUSE OF GANG VIOLENCE.

OVER 2300 KILLED.

THE U.N.

CAME IN WITH A GANG SUPPRESSION TASK FORCE THAT HAS NOT MATERIALIZED.

SO WE DON'T HAVE SECURITY.

SO THE EXACT REASON WE ALLOWED PEOPLE TO COME HERE, BECAUSE OF THE ADMINISTRATION'S POSITION AND THE OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

THAT HASN'T COME TO FRUITION.

THIS IS A MAN-MADE DISASTER IN THE MAKING IN THE MIDDLE OF HURRICANE SEASON, CHRISTIANE.

THIS IS TERRIBLE.

TO TREAT PEOPLE THAT WAY.

>> OKAY.

SO YOU HAVE SAID THAT THIS DEPORTATION, PARTICULARLY OF THESE NUMBERS, COULD JUST ADD AND FEED THE CHAOS OVER IN HAITI, AS YOU'VE DESCRIBED.

ON THE -- ON THE U.S.

SIDE, MANY OF THESE HAITIANS LIVE IN OHIO, AND THE REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR HAS ALSO CRITICIZED THIS, SAYING IT WOULD ACTUALLY REALLY HURT OHIO SOCIETY, COMMUNITY, AND ECONOMY.

LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID.

>> THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAME HERE TO WORK.

THEY CAME HERE TO FILL JOBS THAT WERE NOT BEING FILLED.

THE CITY OF SPRINGFIELD HAS COME BACK STRONGLY OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, AN OLD INDUSTRIAL CITY THAT NOW IS REALLY COMING BACK AND MOVING FORWARD.

ONE OF THE REASONS THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT IS BECAUSE OF THE HAITIANS WHO HAVE FILLED THESE JOBS.

THEY NOT ONLY FILLED JOBS, THEY OPENED RESTAURANTS.

THEY BOUGHT HOMES AND REHABBED HOUSES.

THEY'VE DONE A LOT OF THINGS THAT FRANKLY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE COMMUNITY.

AND FOR THEM TO BE LOST IS GOING TO BE A BIG BLOW TO SPRINGFIELD, AND IT'S GOING TO BE A BIG BLOW TO THE STATE OF OHIO.

>> SO, GENERAL, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS BEHIND THIS?

IF IT'S ECONOMICALLY HARMFUL FOR THE STATE THAT THEY'RE LIVING IN, IF IT'S HARMFUL FOR THESE PEOPLE TO GO BACK TO HAITI, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ACTUAL REASON IS FOR DEPORTING THEM ALL NOW, AND IN THESE BIG NUMBERS?

>> I THINK IT'S THE ASPIRATION OF THE ADMINISTRATION AND PEOPLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION TO BE AS CRUEL AS THEY CAN TO EXPEDITE THE DEPORTATION OF THE HAITIANS BACK TO HAITI, AS WELL AS 12 OTHER COUNTRIES.

BUT THE FOCUS RIGHT NOW IS ON HAITI.

AND IN PARTICULAR, THE TERRORIZING THAT HAS CAUSED THE HAITIAN FAMILIES, AS OF MONDAY, THE CITIZENSHIP AND IMMIGRATION SERVICE DENIED THEM A PERMIT TO WORK.

SO EMPLOYEES ARE TELLING HAITIANS NOT TO COME TO WORK.

AND IT'S IN NURSING HOME.

IT'S IN THE HOSPITALITY BUSINESS.

AND AS THE GOVERN SAID, IT'S IN THE INDUSTRY.

SO AS OF MONDAY, EMPLOYEES, EMPLOYERS CAN'T LEGALLY HIRE HAITIANS.

SO THEY'RE SETTING AT HOME, WONDERING WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM.

WILL THERE BE A VAN PULL UP OUTSIDE?

BECAUSE THERE IS ENOUGH DATA IN THE SYSTEM.

ARE THEY GOING TO START ROUNDING THEM UP LIKE SOME OPERATIONS THAT HAPPENED IN NAZI GERMANY AND JUST PUSH THEM TO THE AIRPLANES AND GO DROP THEM OFF?

THIS IS NOT THE AMERICA I FOUGHT AND DEFEND FOR.

WE USED TO LOOK OUT FOR PEOPLE THAT NEEDED HELP.

WE USED TO HELP THE POOR AND THE PEOPLE THAT ARE REFUGEES.

AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, IT'S CRUEL.

AND NOW WE GOT PEOPLE WHO CAN'T GO TO WORK.

PEOPLE THAT WERE WORKING LAST WEEK, CAN'T WORK THIS WEEK.

IT IS CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT TO SEND PEOPLE BACK TO A COUNTRY THAT OVER A MILLION PEOPLE ARE DISPLACED BECAUSE OF GANG VIOLENCE.

2300 KILLED THIS YEAR.

AND TO DO IT IN A VERY CRUEL AND UNUSUAL WAY.

I KNOW SENATOR SCHUMER HAS A BILL THAT WOULD EXTEND THE TPS, BECAUSE HAITI CANNOT SUCCESSFULLY ACCEPT 350,000 PEOPLE BACK WITH THREE MILLION PEOPLE OF THE 12 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY THAT DON'T HAVE FOOD SECURITY NOW, CHRISTIANE.

THIS IS CRUEL AND UNUSUAL.

AND I DON'T KNOW WHY THE PRESIDENT WOULD SIGN OFF ON THAT.

>> I'M GOING TO GET FURTHER DOWN INTO THE HISTORIC DYSFUNCTION IN HAITI IN A MOMENT AND ASK YOU ABOUT THAT.

BUT RIGHT NOW I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT WHAT YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT, WHICH IS THE GANG VIOLENCE AND THE AMOUNT OF VIOLENCE THERE IS IN HAITI.

LET ME JUST READ FROM YOUR -- FROM YOUR ARTICLE.

YOU SAID THAT THESE ARMED GANGS DOMINATE 80 TO 90% OF THE CAPITAL PORT-au-PRINCE AND LARGE AREAS OF THE COUNTRYSIDE.

DO YOU THINK THAT YOU AND THE HAITIAN PRIME MINISTER, WHO I INTERVIEWED IN MAY ABOUT THIS SUBJECT, ARE AT ODDS?

BECAUSE HE SAYS THAT, YES, A LOT OF THE CAPITAL IS, YOU KNOW, IS AT RISK.

BUT IN GENERAL, IT'S NOT AS BAD AROUND THE REST OF THE COUNTRY.

THIS IS WHAT HE TOLD ME BACK IN MAY WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM.

>> I WANT TO BE CLEAR.

NOT ALL OF HAITI IS UNDER GANG CONTROL.

WE HAVE TEN DEPARTMENTS, AND OUT OF THE TEN DEPARTMENT, ONLY THREE OF THEM ARE AFFECTED BY GANG VIOLENCE.

SEVEN DEPARTMENTS ARE NONE AFFECTED AND LIFE GOES ON AS IF IT WAS ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT STATEMENT?

>> WELL, I THINK HE'S PUTTING THE BEST POLITICAL FACE HE CAN ON IT, AND WE SUPPORT THE PRIME MINISTER FROM THE DIASPORA.

BUT REMEMBER, THE MAJORITY OF THAT POPULATION IS IN AND AROUND PORT-au-PRINCE THAT NEVER RECOVERED FROM THE EARTHQUAKE.

WE HAVE NOT HAD A STABLE GOVERNMENT THERE FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS.

AND WE HAVEN'T HAD AN ELECTION SINCE 2016 AND THE LAST PRESIDENT WAS ASSASSINATED.

THE PRIME MINISTER IS DOING THE BEST HE CAN TO HOLD THE COUNTRY TOGETHER, BUT THE ROADS GOING IN AND OUT OF PORT-au-PRINCE IN MOST CASES ARE CONTROLLED BY THE GANG.

AND PROBLEMS FOR THE GANG SUPPRESSION TASK FORCE, AT THE TIME OF THAT INTERVIEW, THE PRIME MINISTER AND OTHERS IN THE DIASPORA HAD GREAT HOPES THAT THE GANG DEPRESSION WOULD BE THERE FROM THE U.N.

AND WOULD HAVE SOLVED THIS PROBLEM.

SO I THINK IT WAS OPTIMISTIC REVIEW AT THE TIME.

BUT RIGHT NOW, AGAIN, 12 MILLION PEOPLE IN HAITI, AND NEARLY A THIRD OF THEM DON'T HAVE FOOD SECURITY.

AND THE MAJORITY OF THOSE PEOPLE LIVE IN AND AROUND PORT-au-PRINCE.

WE GOT A PROBLEM HERE.

>> AND A LOT OF HAITI DEPENDS ON THE REMITTANCES THAT THEIR RELATIVES AND FRIENDS SEND FROM PLACES LIKE THE UNITED STATES.

SO THAT WILL COMPOUND THEIR POVERTY THERE IF THEY'RE NO LONGER ABLE TO WORK AND SEND THOSE REMITTANCES.

BUT I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, WHY DID THIS GANG SUPPRESSION FORCE, THAT WE WERE ALL TOLD WAS COMING TO HAITI, WHY HAS IT NOT MATERIALIZED IN A WAY THAT'S MAKING ANY DIFFERENCE?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S EASIER TO SAY WE SIGNED UP FOR THE GANG SUPPRESSION TASK FORCE.

IT'S HARDER FOR THOSE INTERNAL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS TO GO BACK HOME AND PUT BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

AND WE HAD THE SAME PROBLEM DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WHEN WE PUT THE KENYANS IN THERE.

THEY PUT THEM IN AS A SYMBOLIC FORCE, BUT THEY DIDN'T GIVE THEM COMMUNICATIONS, THE STARLINK.

THEY DIDN'T GIVE THEM HELICOPTERS.

AND THE LADY LAW PREVENTED THE U.S.

FROM GIVING THE KENYANS OFFENSIVE WEAPONS SO THEY COULD GO AFTER THE GANG.

AND IN LIEU OF THAT, THE HAITIAN GOVERNMENT HAS HIRED ERIK PRINCE MERCENARIES TO GO IN AND GO AFTER THE GANGS.

AND IT'S NO IDEA THAT THIS IS FULLY COLLABORATED WITH WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE GOVERNMENT.

SO WE GOT A DISJOINTED -- IT'S A WAR ZONE.

SO WE GOT ANOTHER FRONT WAR IN THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE IN THE POOREST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD THAT WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO SEND 350,000 MOSTLY WORKING IN AMERICA PEOPLE WITH PERMITS TO WORK AND SEND THEM BACK HOME OUT OF THE CRUELTY THAT WE'RE GOING DEPORT A MILLION PEOPLE THIS YEAR.

>> I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU'VE SAID "CRUELTY" MANY TIMES.

AND YOU'VE BEEN USING VERY HARSH LANGUAGE TO DESCRIBE THIS MASS DEPORTATION GOAL.

WHAT ABOUT AMERICANS WHO SAY, LISTEN, THIS IS WHAT WE VOTED FOR.

TRUMP SAID HE WAS GOING TO DEPORT AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE WHO ARE HERE IN VARIOUS DIFFERENT STATUSES.

I KNOW THESE HAVE TEMPORARY PROTECTED STATUS, BUT HE PROMISED TO DEPORT ALL ILLEGALS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO AMERICANS NOW ABOUT THIS?

>> WELL, I THINK IT WAS TO CLOSE THE BORDER WHICH HAS BEEN A SUCCESSFUL OPERATION.

BUT THE PEOPLE THAT ARE ALREADY HERE AND ARE WORKING, THESE PEOPLE ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THE ECONOMY.

AND AS THE GOVERNOR FROM OHIO SAID AND FROM BUSINESS PEOPLE IN FLORIDA AND NEW JERSEY WHERE THERE IS A LARGE CONCENTRATION OF HAITIAN WORKERS, THEY NEED THOSE WORKERS TO KEEP THEIR BUSINESSES OPEN, IN NURSING HOME AND SKILL ED -- IT'S NOT THAT THEY NEED TO GO HOME.

IT'S HOW WE'RE DOING IT BY SENDING THEM BACK INTO A WAR ZONE.

THAT IS CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT THAT WE WOULD DO THAT, IS TO SEND THEM BACK IN A PLACE THAT IS UNSTABLE, THAT ALREADY HAVE FOOD SECURITY ISSUES, AND THE GANG SUPPRESSION TASK FORCE HAS NOT COME TO FRUITION.

IF THE U.S.

WANTED TO DO SOMETHING, WE WOULD WAVE THE LEAHY LAW.

WE WOULD SEND ADVISERS IN THERE TO HELP TRY TO BUILD THE HAITIAN POLICE AND ARMY, AND MAKE SURE THAT THE GANGS RIGHT NOW OUTGUN THE POLICE.

AND 90% OF THE GUNS THAT THE GANGS USE ARE COMING OUT OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA, ACCORDING TO A RECENT REPORT FROM THE FBI AND THE AP PATF.

WE CAN HELP SOLVE THIS AND BE PROACTIVE AND GRADUALLY SEND THEM HOME AS OPPOSED TO TRYING TO SEND 350,000 STARTING MONDAY WITH AN ESTIMATE OF 3,000 BEING DEPORTED BACK AT ONE TIME IN CAMP HAITIAN WHILE THE PORT-au-PRINCE AIRPORT IS NOT OPEN.

>> GENERAL, CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU HAVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE.

I'VE ALSO COVERED HAITI FOR A LONG TIME, SINCE THE MID-90s.

AND I HAVE WITNESSED INTERVENTIONS BY THE UNITED STATES, DEPLOYMENTS BY INTERNATIONALS AND U.N.

AND NGOs, ALL SORTS OF EFFORTS TO HELP THEM BUILD UP THEIR SECURITY, TRY TO BUILD UP THEIR ECONOMIC WHEREWITHAL AND THEIR SURVIVAL, TRY TO STABILIZE THIS COUNTRY.

AND IT JUST DOESN'T WORK.

WHERE IS, IN YOUR MIND, THE BIG PROBLEM?

YOU HAVE A LOT OF EXPERIENCE WITH HAITI.

YOU ADVISE A LOT OF ORGANIZATIONS.

WHAT ACTUALLY NEEDS TO HAPPEN?

>> WE NEED TO TRY TO ENFORCE THAT DEMOCRACY CAN WORK IN HAITI.

AND THE CHALLENGE THAT WE'VE SEEN IS THE CORRUPTION THAT CAN HAPPEN IN A DEMOCRACY WITHOUT ACCOUNTABILITY AND WITHOUT PROPER JUDICIAL ACTIONS.

AND AS HISTORY HAS SHOWN IN THE LAST TWO DECADES, MUCH OF THE ELECTED OFFICIALS HAVE NOT LOOKED OUT FOR THE PEOPLE.

THEY'VE LOOKED OUT FOR THEMSELVES AND THEIR FRIENDS, WHICH HAS COME AT THE DETRIMENT OF THE HAITIAN PEOPLE.

THE HAITIAN PEOPLE THAT I'VE GOTTEN TO KNOW ARE HARD-WORKING.

THEY LOVE THEIR COUNTRY.

THEY HAVE PRIDE IN THEIR COUNTRY.

BUT DEMOCRACY HAS NOT TREATED THEM WELL.

IT'S NOT BEEN KIND.

AS WE CAN SEE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY.

HOLDING ON TO A DEMOCRACY IS HARD.

AND IT'S HARDER AFTER A MAJOR EARTHQUAKE AND THE ASSASSINATION OF A PRESIDENT.

WE NEED TO GIVE HAITIAN PEOPLE A CHANCE TO COME UP WITH A PLAN IN HAITI THAT MAKE DEMOCRACY WORK IN HAITI.

AND THEY NEED TO SUPPORT NOT JUST THE U.S., BUT THE REST OF WHAT WE CALL THE CORE GROUP, CANADA AND FRANCE, WHO ARE ALL STANDING ON THE SIDELINES AND GO IN AND DO MINIMUM WORK.

WE NEED TO GET THE NGOs BACK AND GET COMMERCE WORKING IN HAITI AND GET THE SCHOOLS AND THE HOSPITALS OPEN.

IMAGINE WE'RE SENDING PEOPLE INTO A PLACE WHERE MOST OF THE SCHOOLS IN PORT-au-PRINCE ARE CLOSED.

THE HOSPITAL HAS BEEN DESTROYED, AND THE GANGS ARE IN CONTROL.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO SEND 350,000 PEOPLE THAT ARE CURRENTLY WORKING IN AMERICA BACK INTO A WAR ZONE, CHRISTIANE.

>> I MEAN, I CAN SEE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

AND I JUST WANT TO DO A LITTLE BIT OF A SWERVE, BECAUSE YOU ARE ALSO VERY WELL-KNOWN FOR MANAGING THE HUMANITARIAN RELIEF AND OTHER RELIEF OPERATIONS, YOU KNOW, AFTER HURRICANE KATRINA.

AND YOU PROBABLY READ THE RECENT ARTICLE IN POLITICO ABOUT EFFECTIVELY THE POLITICIZATION OF DISASTER RELIEF.

SO LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT.

THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE, THEY SAY, IS BLOCKING DEMOCRATIC-LED STATES FROM GETTING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN DISASTER AID.

THAT'S INSIDE THE U.S.

ACCORDING TO POLITICO, TRUMP HAS APPROVED JUST 23% OF DISASTER FUNDING REQUESTS FROM BLUE STATES, DEMOCRATIC STATES, AND 89% FOR RED STATES.

WHAT IMPACT DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HAVE?

>> WELL, HE'S GIVING FAVOR TO RED STATES AND PUNISHING BLUE STATES THAT DIDN'T VOTE FOR HIM.

THIS IS SORT OF THE CHARACTERISTIC OF THIS GOVERNMENT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I REMEMBER WORKING WITH PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH.

HE HAD A PRETTY GOOD RECORD OF APPROVING MOST OF THOSE THAT CAME ACROSS HIS DESK.

NOT BASED ON WHETHER THAT STATE VOTED FOR YOU OR IF YOU LIKE THE SENATOR FROM THAT STATE, BUT UNDER THIS GOVERNMENT, BEING IN A BLUE STATE WITH A BLUE GOVERNOR WITH A DEMOCRATIC SENATOR, IT'S PUT STATES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT AT RISK FOR OVER $230 MILLION THAT'S SETTING ON THE TABLE, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS APPROVED BY FEMA, IT GOT TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE PRESIDENT SAID NO.

AND THE RATIONALE HAS BEEN IS THAT HE'S APPROVING DISASTER RELIEF FOR REPUBLICAN STATES, BUT NOT DOING IT FOR DEMOCRATIC STATES.

AND THAT'S NOT THE INTENT OF THE MONEY APPROPRIATED BY CONGRESS TO GO TO THESE DISASTER, CHRISTIANE.

>> GENERAL RUSSEL HONORE, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US AND HIGHLIGHTING THIS IMPORTANT UNFOLDING STORY REGARDING HAITIANS AND THEIR DEPORTATION BACK TO THEIR OWN RAVAGED COUNTRY.

>> GOD BLESS.

>>> NOW TO THE SCENES OF UTTER DEVASTATION ACROSS EUROPE IN THE WAKE OF WILDFIRES ACROSS PARTS OF FRANCE AND SPAIN.

WHILE SOME OF THOSE BLAZES HAVE BEEN STABILIZED OVER RECENT DAYS, THE DANGER IS FAR FROM OVER.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES IN MADRID SAY CAUTION IS STILL NECESSARY, WITH RISING TEMPERATURES AND A LACK OF RAIN FORECAST, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF RESIDENTS IN THE CENTRAL REGIONS OF SPAIN HAVE BEEN FORCED TO EVACUATE.

THE SITUATION IN FRANCE IS NO DIFFERENT, WITH COMMUNITIES DISPLACED BY WILDFIRES AND NOW FACING SEVERE TEMPERATURES AS WELL.

NADA BASHIR HAS MORE FROM ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S WORST AFFECTED REGIONS.

>> Reporter: THIS IS A SCENE WHICH HAS BECOME ALL TOO FAMILIAR NOW IN FRANCE'S SOUTHWESTERN JEROND REGION.

THE SCORCHED EARTH AND BENT TREES ACROSS MILES AND MILES OF WOODLAND AND FARMLAND IN THIS REGION AS A RESULT OF WILDFIRES THAT HAVE BEEN BLAZING FOR DAYS NOW.

AND ACCORDING TO AN OFFICIAL UPDATE ON WEDNESDAY, OFFICIALS HAVE SAID THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE FIRES THAT THEY HAVE BEEN BATTLING OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS HAVE STABILIZED.

THEY HAVEN'T SEEN ANY SORT OF SPREADING OF THOSE FIRES, THOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN SOME BLAZES WHICH HAVE REKINDLED, THOUGH THEY SAY THEY WERE QUICKLY DEALT WITH.

BUT WE ARE SEEING PEAK TEMPERATURES ON WEDNESDAY, TODAY, EXPECTED TO REACH AROUND 41 DEGREES CELSIUS, SOARING PAST 100 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT.

THAT IS WHAT IS EXPECTED AS THE HEATWAVE CONTINUES.

AND THERE IS A FEAR THAT THESE EXTREME TEMPERATURES THAT WE ARE SEEING COULD LEAD TO MORE FIRES.

AND OF COURSE, FOR THE RESIDENTS OF THIS REGION, THERE IS A HUGE AMOUNT OF FEAR AROUND THE POTENTIAL FOR MORE FIRES.

MORE THAN 200,000 PEOPLE ALREADY EVACUATED, MANY OF THEM DESPERATELY WAITING FOR NEWS OF WHEN THEY WILL BE ABLE TO RETURN HOME.

BUT FOR SOME, THEY WILL NOT HAVE HOMES TO RETURN TO.

>> NOW, A NEW REPORT SAYS 2025 WAS THE DEADLIEST YEAR FOR ANTISEMITIC ATTACKS IN THE JEWISH DIASPORA IN OVER 30 YEARS.

THAT'S OF COURSE J7, PART OF THE ADL.

AT THE SAME TIME, HARROWING SUFFERING CONTINUES IN GAZA WITH PALESTINIANS DYING EVERY DAY.

A PARISH PRIEST THERE DESCRIBES THE WORSENING HUMANITARIAN CRISIS AS, QUOTE, BEYOND DISASTROUS.

NINE MONTHS INTO A SUPPOSED CEASEFIRE, ISRAEL CONTROLS NEARLY 70% OF THE TERRITORY, AND ACCORDING TO THE PALESTINIAN MINISTRY OF HEALTH, HAS KILLED OVER A THOUSAND PALESTINIANS IN STRIKE IN THAT TIME.

MEANTIME, IN THE WEST BANK, SETTLER VIOLENCE CONTINUES DESPITE ONGOING INTERNATIONAL CONDEMNATION.

AS ISRAELIS GEAR UP FOR ELECTIONS, WILL THIS POLICY CHANGE?

NIR HASSON IS A CORRESPONDENT FOR THE ISRAELI PAPER HAARETZ, AND HE'S FOCUSED HEAVILY ON WHAT'S HAPPENED TO GAZA OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS.

AND HE IS JOINING US FROM JERUSALEM.

NIR HASSON, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

I JUST WANT TO BASICALLY GET YOUR -- >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME -- >> ON WHAT THE FEELING IS IN ISRAEL RIGHT NOW AS THE COUNTRY GEARS UP FOR ELECTIONS.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF OPPOSITION PARTIES THAT ARE RUNNING EITHER AHEAD ON NECK AND NECK WITH NETANYAHU.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE LAY OF THE LAND NOW?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF OPTIMISM AMONG -- AT LEAST IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS OR SO, AMONG THE CAMP THAT OPPOSED NETANYAHU AND HIS GOVERNMENT BECAUSE POLL AFTER POLL, SURVEY AFTER SURVEY WE SEE THAT NETANYAHU HAVE NO MAJORITY FOR HIS NEXT GOVERNMENT AFTER THE ELECTION.

HOWEVER, I THINK THAT THIS CAMPAIGN IS NOT DEALING WITH THE REAL ISSUES THAT THE ISRAELI SOCIETY NEED TO FACE UP WITH.

AND THIS IS WHAT HAPPEN IN GAZA, WHAT HAPPENED IN THE WEST BANK.

IT'S MOSTLY AROUND THE CAMPAIGNS AND THE ELECTION IS MOSTLY AROUND THE CHARACTER OF NETANYAHU ITSELF, NOT ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENED HERE IN THE LAST TWO YEARS.

THIS IS HOW I FEEL.

>> OKAY.

SO BEFORE I GET TO WHAT'S HAPPENING, I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS, THOUGH.

NETANYAHU PROMISED TO DESTROY HAMAS.

IT HASN'T ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

AND TO END THE WAR.

>> NO.

>> WHICH I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU CONSIDER IT ENDED, BUT IT STILL CONTINUES.

WHAT DO PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THOSE PLEDGES HE MADE?

>> RIGHT.

WELL, IT DEPENDS WHAT SIDE OF THE ISRAELI POLITICAL MAP YOU ARE LOOKING AT.

I THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO ARGUE THAT NETANYAHU'S SUCCESS WITH THE WAR THAT HE RAN IN THE LAST TWO YEARS, HAMAS IS STILL IN POWER IN GAZA.

HEZBOLLAH STILL HAS SOME POWER IN LEBANON.

HE DIDN'T SOLVE THE ISSUE IN IRAN, OF COURSE.

HOWEVER, LIKE IN THE STATE IN ISRAEL AS WELL, THE FACTS ARE NOT REALLY IMPORTANT WHEN WE COMING TO THE CAMPAIGN.

WHAT MATTERS IS THE DISCOURSE AROUND THE CHARACTER OF NETANYAHU, AROUND HIS OPPONENTS.

SO THIS BOTHER ME.

YOU ASK THE FACTS ON THE GROUND ARE NOT ON THE FIELD OF THE CAMPAIGN.

IT'S NOT ON THE DISCOURSE.

>> SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THE FACTS ON THE GROUND.

SO IT'S BEEN ABOUT NINE MONTHS SINCE TRUMP LAID OUT THE 20-POINT PLAN TO END THE GAZA WAR.

THERE WAS THE CEASEFIRE, ALL THE HOSTAGES, THE LIVE ONES WERE RELEASED AND BODIES CAME OUT.

BUT THE PROGRESS OBVIOUSLY HAS STALLED.

THE FIRING AND THE STRIKES CONTINUE.

AND AS I SAID, SOMETHING LIKE A THOUSAND PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA IN THE LAST NINE MONTHS OR SO.

>> RIGHT.

>> WHAT IS THE STATUS, DO YOU THINK?

TELL US, BECAUSE WE CAN'T GET IN.

I KNOW YOU'RE COVERING IT FROM OUTSIDE.

BUT WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING ON THE GROUND?

WHERE DOES THIS 20-POINT PEACE PLAN STAND, FOR INSTANCE?

>> SO NOT A LOT CHANGE IN GAZA SINCE OCTOBER, SINCE THIS -- WENT INTO POWER.

THE SITUATION IN GAZA, THE LIVING CONDITION IN GAZA ARE STILL EXTREMELY TOUGH AND HORRIBLE.

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE LIVING IN TENTS WITHOUT ELECTRICITY, WITHOUT RUNNING WATER, WITH NO FUNCTIONING SEWAGE SYSTEM, WITH SPREAD OF INFECTIONS AND DISEASES, AND WITH BUGS AND RATS AND WILD DOGS ALL AROUND THEM.

THERE'S NO EVEN THE BEGINNING OF SOME KIND OF REBUILDING, OF REHABILITATION IN GAZA.

IT SEEMS THAT ALL THE BIG PLANS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP ARE STILL ON THE PAPER.

I DON'T SEE ANYTHING CHANGE THERE.

ACTUALLY, I SPOKE TODAY WITH SOMEONE FROM GAZA, AND HE TOLD ME THAT THE AMOUNT OF DESPAIR AMONG THE PEOPLE THERE IS MUCH WORSE THAN WHAT IT WAS A YEAR AGO.

WHEN THE WAR WAS STILL RUNNING.

>> WOW.

>> BECAUSE NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

BECAUSE -- YEAH.

AND AS YOU SAID, ISRAEL EXPAND THE TERRITORY THAT IT CONTROLLED.

THE IDF EXPAND THE TERRITORY UNDER CONTROLLING GAZA AND PUSH THE PALESTINIANS TO A SMALL AREA, AND YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER THE WEATHER, THE TEMPERATURE.

AND IN THE TENTS, IT'S LIKE A GREENHOUSE.

IT'S VERY TOUGH.

AND IT'S THE THIRD SUMMER IN THE WORLD THAT PEOPLE LIVE UNDER THIS CONDITION.

I DON'T SEE HOW ANYTHING CHANGE THERE.

AND, YEAH, IT'S REALLY DESPAIR, FOR ME AT LEAST.

>> I MUST SAY, THE PICTURES ARE APPALLING.

TELL ME SOMETHING.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SITUATION WITH HAMAS IS.

THERE ARE REPORTS THAT THEY MIGHT BE REARMING.

THEY CERTAINLY HAVEN'T DISARMED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE GOAL OF THE ISRAELI POLITICAL AND MILITARY CLASS IS?

AND WHAT DIFFERENCE WOULD IT MAKE IF THERE WAS ANOTHER ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THAT WASN'T NETANYAHU, THAT WASN'T, YOU KNOW, THE ULTRA RIGHT EXTREMISTS IN HIS COALITION?

DO YOU THINK IT WOULD MAKE AN ACTUAL MATERIAL DIFFERENCE TO SOLVING THE SITUATION OR NOT?

>> THIS IS VERY TOUGH QUESTION, BECAUSE I THINK THE NEXT GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL WOULD BE BETTER BECAUSE I CANNOT IMAGINE A WORSE GOVERNMENT THAT THE ONE WE HAVE TODAY.

HOWEVER, I DO AFRAID THAT THIS GOVERNMENT COULD NOT DEAL WITH THE REAL ISSUES THAT SHAPE OUR LIFE HERE BETWEEN THE SEA AND THE RIVER.

YOU KNOW, I JUST PUBLISHED TWO WEEKS AGO A STORY ABOUT THE DEATH OF CHILDREN IN GAZA.

I RECEIVED HUNDREDS OF RESPONSE FROM ISRAELIS MOCKING, LAUGHING, YOU KNOW, ADDING LAUGHING EMOJIS, SAYING WHY SO LITTLE -- WHY WE DIDN'T -- WE DON'T KILL THE CHILDREN IN GAZA FASTER.

AND IT'S BETTER THAN TO DIE BEFORE THEY WILL BECOME A TERRORIST AND ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

AND THIS DEHUMANIZATION, THIS RACISM, THIS VIOLENCE IN THE ISRAELI SOCIETY CANNOT BE FIXED BY ELECTION.

I THINK WE NEED YEARS, MAYBE DECADES TO REPAIR THE ISRAELI SOCIETY AFTER THIS GOVERNMENT AND WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LAST THREE YEARS.

SO I'M NOT VERY MUCH OPTIMISTIC TO THE FUTURE AND THE NEXT GOVERNMENT.

>> SO AS YOU KNOW, OF COURSE YOU KNOW, BECAUSE YOU'RE REPORTING ON IT, THERE IS A MASSIVE SPIKE, AS THERE HAS BEEN SINCE OCTOBER 7th, OF REALLY UNTRAMMELLED AND UNCONTROLLED SETTLER VIOLENCE IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE SEE THE RESULTS OF IT ALL THE WAY OVER HERE.

AND NOW YOU'VE SEEN THAT SOME 600 RETIRED IDF GENERALS AND COLONELS AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE MILITARY AND SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE ESTABLISHMENT.

>> RIGHT.

>> HAVE WRITTEN A LETTER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP ASKING HIM TO CONDEMN THE JEWISH SETTLER ACTIVITY AND TO RELAY THAT TO NETANYAHU.

SO NETANYAHU WAS JUST IN WASHINGTON.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY IMPACT THAT THE U.S.

GOVERNMENT OR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION COULD HAVE ON NETANYAHU?

AND DON'T FORGET, THIS WHOLE BOARD OF PEACE AND THE 20-POINT PLAN IS A RESULT OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND JARED KUSHNER AND STEPHEN WITKOFF.

WE DON'T HEAR ANYTHING MORE ABOUT THAT RIGHT NOW.

>> YES, OF COURSE.

OF COURSE I THINK THAT THE TRUMP HAVE A LEVERAGE.

CAN PUSH NETANYAHU TO STOP WHAT HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK.

I THINK WE SHOULD CALL IT IN ITS NAME.

WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE WEST BANK, IT'S AN ETHNIC CLEANSING BY DEFINITION.

HUNDREDS OF -- NOT HUNDREDS, MAYBE TENS OF PALESTINIANS, COMMUNITIES WERE FIRST TO LEAVE THEIR VILLAGES IN THE LAST TWO YEARS OR SO.

AND THIS ETHNIC CLEANSING IS GOING ON UNDER A VERY SIM SYMBIOSIS BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT AND THE SETTLERS AND THE IDF WITH COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT THAT WE SEE NOW IN NABLUS WITH THIS JEWISH TERROR ATTACKS AGAINST PALESTINIANS WITH THE TOTAL INDIFFERENCE BY THE POLICE AND THE IDF TO THIS CRIMES THAT COMMITTED BY THE SETTLERS.

SO WE HAVE TO CALL IT IN ITS TAME.

IT'S ETHNIC CLEANSING.

AND I THINK THE ONLY WAY THIS GOVERNMENT WILL DO SOMETHING TO HALT IT IS BY INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE, ESPECIALLY FROM THE GOVERNMENT, THE U.S.

GOVERNMENT.

>> AND FINALLY, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE REPORT BY THE ADL, THE J7 COUNTRIES THAT THE LEVEL OF ANTISEMITISM HAS SPIKED TO A LEVEL UNKNOWN IN 30 YEARS IN THE DIASPORA?

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> WHAT I MAKE OF IT IS THAT I THINK THERE IS A -- FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE TO DEFINED WHAT ANTISEMITISM, WHAT ANTISEMITISM IS EXACTLY.

AND TO TAKE OUT CRITICISM AGAINST ISRAEL, WHICH MANY IN ISRAEL, IN THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT CONSIDERED AS ANTISEMITISM, AND I DO NOT.

BUT ANTISEMITISM, I DO NOT IGNORE IT, BUT I THINK WE ALSO HAVE TO SEE THE CONNECTION BETWEEN WHAT ISRAEL DOES IN THE WEST BANK AND IN GAZA AND THOSE WAVES OF ANTISEMITISM AROUND THE WORLD.

WE HAVE TO TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITIES ON THAT AS WELL.

>> NIR HASSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

THANK YOU.

>>> NOW MORE THAN A THIRD OF SITTING U.S.

SENATORS ARE OVER 70 YEARS OLD.

AND ACCORDING TO A RECENT CNN REPORT, 58% OF AMERICANS SAY THIS POSES MAJOR PROBLEMS.

TAKE SENATOR MITCH McCONNELL, WHO HAS BEEN ABSENT SINCE JUNE.

THE 84-YEAR-OLD IS NOW IN REHAB AFTER TIME IN HOSPITAL RECOVERING FROM A FALL IN JUNE.

BUT THIS HASN'T SILENCED CONCERN ABOUT HIS FITNESS TO SERVE.

THE GOVERN ANDY BESHEAR HAS CALLED FOR HIM TO FULLY REVEAL HIS HEALTH STATUS OR RESIGN.

OUR NEXT GUEST CALLS THIS ELDERLY COHORT THE OLD-IGARCHY.

SAMUEL MOYN IS A PROFESSOR AT YALE, AND HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS ALL THIS.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

SAMUEL MOYN, YOU'VE WRITTEN A RECENT BOOK.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT IT.

IT'S CALLED "GERONTOCRACY IN AMERICA: HOW THE OLD ARE HOARDING WEALTH AND WHAT TO TO BE IT."

FIRST, LET'S DEFINE THE TERM WHAT'S A GERONTOCRACY?

AND HOW IS AMERICA RUN BY ONE?

>> WELL, GERONTOCRACY IS LIKE THE WORD DEMOCRACY, EXCEPT THIS WORD MEANS RULE OF, BY AND FOR THE OLD PEOPLE.

>> GIVE US AN EXAMPLE BECAUSE OF OUR POLITICIANS BEING A CERTAIN AGE VERSUS THE ELECTORATE?

>> I THINK WE SHOULD START WITH THE POLITICIANS SINCE WE'RE ALREADY TALKING ABOUT THEM, BUT SEE THEM AS THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG, SINCE AFTER ALL, IT MIGHT NOT MATTER HOW OLD THEY ARE IF THE ELECTORATE IS OLD.

IF DONALD TRUMP SOMEHOW DOESN'T MAKE IT ANOTHER YEAR, WE'LL IMMEDIATELY HAVE THE YOUNGEST PRESIDENT IN U.S.

HISTORY, BUT WE WILL STILL HAVE A GERONTOCRACY BECAUSE OF HOW OLD THE VOTERS ARE, REACHING IN SOME PRIMARIES LIKE IN NEW MEXICO IN 2024 A MEDIAN AGE OF 72, AND HOW OLD WEALTH IS.

THE AGE GROUP LIKELIEST TO OWN A HOME IN THIS COUNTRY IS 70 TO 74.

THE AGE GROUP SECOND MOST LIKELY 75 AND ABOVE.

AND WE KNOW THAT THE AGE OF HOME BUYING HAS INCREASED SPECTACULARLY OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS.

SO THOSE ARE EXAMPLES.

BUT REALLY, IT'S PERVASIVE.

>> IF YOU WROTE THIS BOOK IN 1900, THE NUMBERS WOULD BE DIFFERENT, PARTLY BECAUSE WE WEREN'T LIVING AS LONG, RIGHT?

THEIR AVERAGE AGE WAS WHAT, 47.3, ACCORDING TO THE CDC BACK IN 1900.

AND HERE WE ARE NOW THE AVERAGE AGE IS SOMEWHERE AROUND 79 OR 80.

DOES IT NATURALLY OCCUR THAT IF OUR MEDICAL ADVANCES AND OUR IMPROVEMENT IN THE QUALITY OF LIFE OVERALL IN THE LAST 125 YEARS IS IMPROVED, THE PEOPLE WOULD BE LIVING LONGER AND THEREFORE HAVING MORE MONEY, HAVING MORE POWER?

>> OF COURSE.

LIFE EXTENSION IS BEHIND IT ALL.

AND THE FACT THAT WE DO EXPECT TO LIVE LONG LIVES IS SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE FOR SURE.

IT'S JUST THAT THERE'S A DARK SIDE TO IT.

AND WHAT I SEE IS THAT ONCE THE CURRENT OLD PEOPLE, THE SILENTS AND ESPECIALLY THE BOOMERS ENTER THIS STAGE OF HISTORY, THEY WERE THERE AT THE RIGHT TIME TO BENEFIT FROM LIFE EXTENSION.

AND WHAT'S HAPPENED IS THEY SET UP A NEW AMERICAN REALITY IN WHICH OLDER PEOPLE CONTROL SO MUCH MORE OF OUR NATIONAL RESOURCES AND EXERCISE SO MUCH GREATER POWER IN ELECTIONS THAT WE WOULDN'T EVEN EXPECT IT BASED JUST ON THE SHEER FACT OF LIFE EXTENSION, IN PART BECAUSE THEY'VE SUCCEEDED IN BUILDING IN, YOU KNOW, FORMAL PRIVILEGES FOR THEMSELVES THAT ARE GOING TO OF COURSE BE INHERITED BY FUTURE GENERATIONS WHEN THEY GET OLD TOO.

SO THAT'S WHY IT'S NOT EXACTLY ONE GENERATION THAT'S THE PROBLEM, BUT A GERONTOCRACY THAT'S GOING TO BE BENEFITTING OLDER PEOPLE FOR AS LONG AS WE CAN IMAGINE.

>> SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SUGGEST IS AN AGE LIMIT TO POSITIONS IN DIFFERENT TYPES OF POLITICAL OFFICE OR FEDERAL OFFICE.

WHAT WOULD THAT LOOK LIKE?

>> WELL, AGE LIMITS FOR POLITICIANS ARE WILDLY POPULAR.

I MEAN, THEY POLL EXTREMELY WELL.

AND ONE REASON TO FAVOR THEM OVER TERM LIMITS WHICH ARE PRETTY WELL UNDERSTOOD, IN PART BECAUSE WE'VE ADOPTED THEM AT THE STATE LEVEL IS THAT POLITICIANS ARE ENTERING POLITICAL CAREERS MUCH LATER IN LIFE.

>> YEAH.

>> AND THAT MEANS THAT A CLOCK THAT STARTS TICKING IN A SENSE TOO LATE WON'T HEAD OFF THE PROBLEM OF COGNITIVE DECLINE OR DEATH WE'VE BEEN DEALING WITH.

AND SO AN AGE LIMIT IS VERY SIMPLE.

IT WOULD JUST SAY THAT AT A CERTAIN AGE, I THINK SOME TIME AROUND THE AGE OF 70, BUT WE COULD PUSH IT HIGHER.

>> YEAH.

>> WOULD BE A REASONABLE AGE LIMIT.

BUT WE COULD ALSO LEAVE IT FLEXIBLE.

>> THAT IDEA I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS IT CHAFES AGAINST PEOPLE IS THERE SEEMS TO BE SOMETHING ANTI-DEMOCRATIC ABOUT IT.

IF THIS IS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE, THIS IS THE PERSON WE WANT TO ELECT, DESPITE THEIR AGE, DESPITE THEIR BACKGROUND, WHATEVER IT IS, IT'S THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE, AND IT WAS OUR VOICE, AND WE WANT TO ELECT THIS PERSON, WHETHER THEY'RE 23 OR THAT THEY'RE 83, RIGHT?

HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT ONLY CHAFES A MINORITY.

BECAUSE AS I MENTIONED, A VAST MAJORITY FAVORS AGE LIMITS FOR OUR POLITICIANS.

BUT I THINK WE SHOULD GIVE LOVE TO THOSE WHO DISSENT BECAUSE THEY'RE MAKING A REASONABLE POINT.

WHAT I THINK THEY'RE MISSING IS WE DON'T HAVE DEMOCRACY.

WE HAVE GERONTOCRACY.

AND SO THE SYSTEM WE HAVE IS SYSTEMATICALLY PRODUCING OLDER POLITICIANS.

AND SO WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO CORRECT IT.

WE SEE THIS IN TWO WAYS.

THE INCUMBENCY ADVANTAGE IN AMERICAN POLITICS IS HUGE.

THAT MEANS FOR MOST PEOPLE OF MOST AGES, YOU'RE NOT EVEN ABLE TO VOTE FOR SOMEONE YOUR OWN AGE, ONLY AN OLDER PERSON.

AND THEN WE LOOK AT THE VOTERS, AND ESPECIALLY WHO'S FINANCING ELECTIONS, AND THEY'RE ALSO EXTREMELY OLD.

SO IF WE END UP WITH A SYSTEM THAT WE CALL DEMOCRACY, BUT IS ACTUALLY OLDER PEOPLE CHOOSING AND PAYING FOR THE RESULTS OF ELECTIONS, THEN WE KIND OF KIDDED OURSELVES THAT IT'S DEMOCRATIC IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> OKAY.

HERE'S A SIMPLE ARGUMENT THAT I CAN HEAR ANY RETIREMENT COMMUNITY VOTER MAKING.

HEY, LOOK, YOU KNOW WHAT?

IF YOUNG PEOPLE CARED SO MUCH, THEY SHOULD GET OUT AND VOTE.

THE FACT THAT THEIR APATHY IS CONTRIBUTING TO THIS, THEY CAN OUTVOTE ME.

THERE IS SO MANY MORE OF THEM THAN THERE ARE ME.

SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THAT THINKING?

>> I'M FOR SHAMING YOUNGER PEOPLE, BECAUSE NOT TOO MUCH WITHOUT RECOGNIZING THAT IT'S A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM.

IN A FEW WAYS, WE PUNISH YOUNGER PEOPLE FOR BEING MOBILE THROUGH REGISTRATION REQUIREMENTS.

IT'S MUCH EASIER IF YOUR RETIRED OR POWERFUL AT WORK TO LEAVE TO GO TO THE POLLS.

WE HAVE SO MANY ELECTIONS THAT YOUNGER PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, AREN'T ABLE TO MAYBE HAVE THE TIME AND BANDWIDTH TO FOCUS ON EVERYONE.

AND THAT'S WHY IN THE REALLY DECISIVE ONES LIKE PRIMARIES WHERE CANDIDATES ARE MOSTLY CHOSEN, THEY'RE LESS LIKELY TO SHOW UP.

FINALLY, I THINK WE HAVE A SYNDROME OF YOUNG PEOPLE BEING ALIENATED FROM OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM.

AND NO WONDER, BECAUSE WHO DID THEY SEE IN POWER, WHAT DID THEY SEE AS THE POLICIES THAT ARE COMING OUT WHEN THEY CARE ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, BUT OLDER VOTERS ARE LEAST LIKELY TO CARE ABOUT IT AND GET THEIR WAY AND KICK IT DOWN THE ROAD, WHY WOULD YOU INVEST IN A SYSTEM THAT'S BROKEN?

I THINK WE SHOULD, AND WE SHOULD URGE YOUNGER PEOPLE TO GO TO VOTE, BUT NOT WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY THINK IT'S RIGGED AND THEY'RE RIGHT.

>> ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS THAT YOU'RE PROPOSING IS TO LITERALLY DO AWAY WITH THE SENATE.

WHY?

>> WELL, IN FAIRNESS, IT'S A BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT LITERALLY NAMED AFTER OLD MEN.

AND NOWADAYS, OF COURSE, THAT'S BASICALLY WHO'S IN IT.

WE HAVE ONE SENATOR BARELY IN HIS 30s AND VERY FEW IN THEIR 40s.

AND IT'S BEEN CALLED THE WORLD'S MOST LUXURIOUS RETIREMENT HOME.

BUT I THINK WORSE IS THE FACT THAT IT WAS INSTITUTED NOT ONLY TO PROTECT FOLKS IN SMALL STATES, BUT FOR THE SAKE OF KEEPING AMERICA THE WAY IT IS, WHEN YOUNG PEOPLE AND EVEN PEOPLE IN THEIR PRIME JUST SEE NAGGING PROBLEMS THAT THE SENATE OBSTRUCTS THE SOLUTIONS TO.

AND SO I THINK I'D RATHER HAVE IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A SECOND HOUSE OF CONGRESS, ONE THAT'S NOT NAMED AFTER OLD PEOPLE, BUT I'D RATHER NOT HAVE A SECOND HOUSE OF CONGRESS AT ALL.

>> YOU SPENT QUITE A BIT OF TIME IN THE BOOK ALSO TAKING THE ENTIRE JUDICIARY TO TASK.

YOU POINT OUT HOW OLD THE AVERAGE AGE OF THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES ARE AND HOW LONG THEY SERVE, AND REALLY A BUNCH OF FEDERAL LIFETIME APPOINTMENTS.

>> I DO.

HERE IT'S NOT JUST THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS AN OUTLIER COMPARED TO THE STATES, WHICH HAVE WIDESPREAD AGE LIMITS FOR JUDGES, BUT IN WORLD PERSPECTIVE, NO COUNTRY HAS LIFE TENURE FOR JUDGES.

AND ESPECIALLY WHEN WE HAVE SUCH EXTRAORDINARY POWER THAT OUR SUPREME COURT JUSTICES HAVE.

THERE'S REALLY NO ARGUMENT THAT I'VE SEEN IN FAVOR OF LETTING THEM STAY AROUND FOR LIFE.

WE KNOW THAT IN THAT SITUATION, THEY'RE OFTEN MAKING BETS ON THEIR OWN LONGEVITY, IF THEY WANT TO BE REPLACED BY A FRIEND FROM THEIR OWN PARTY.

RUTH GINSBURG DID, AND THE RESULT OF LOSING HER SADLY WAS THE OBSTRUCTION OF ABORTION RIGHTS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL FOR MILLIONS OF WOMEN.

AND I JUST THINK THAT WE HAVE SUCCESSION PROBLEMS THAT ARE VERY CLEARLY ILLUSTRATED BY THIS BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT.

THERE ARE VERY FEW YOUNG JURISTS, AND YET HALF OF AMERICANS ARE 40 OR UNDER.

WHERE ARE THEIR JUDGES?

>> IN ADDITION TO POLITICAL POWER, YOU BELIEVE THAT OLDER AMERICANS ARE ALSO HOARDING WEALTH AS WELL.

2011 PEW RESEARCH REPORT SAID 191984 AND 2009, THE MEDIAN NET WORTH OF HOUSEHOLDS HEADED BY ADULTS 65 AND OLDER ROSE 42%, WHILE THE MEDIAN NET WORTH OF HOUSEHOLDS HEADED BY ADULTS UNDER 35 FELL BY 68%.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BANK ACCOUNTS OF GROUPS IN DIFFERENT AGE BRACKETS, WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS?

>> OVER THE PAST DECADES, WITH ONLY A COUPLE OF INTERRUPTIONS, THE AGE WEALTH GAP HAS EXPLODED.

AMERICANS ARE MAYBE MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE RACIAL WEALTH GAP WHERE IF YOU'RE NOT WHITE, YOU'RE LIKELY NOT TO BE AS WEALTHY.

THE AGE WEALTH GAP IS FAR WORTH.

OF COURSE, WE'D EXPECT OLDER PEOPLE TO HAVE MORE BECAUSE THEY'VE HAD MORE TIME TO ACCUMULATE IT.

>> RIGHT.

>> BUT OVER THE LAST DECADES, THE GAP BETWEEN THE OLD AND EVERYONE ELSE HAS EXPANDED DRAMATICALLY.

AND WE HAVE A SITUATION NOW WHERE THE YOUNGER AGE COHORT UNDER 40 CONTROLS JUST A FRACTION, LIKE 5 TO 10% OF OVERALL AMERICAN WEALTH, WHERE THOSE OVER 50 CONTROL SOMETHING LIKE 80%.

AND SO WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A CONCENTRATION OF MEANS, INCLUDING MEANS TO CHANGE OUR POLITICS AT THE UPPER END OF THE AGE SPECTRUM LIKE IT'S NEVER BEEN IN U.S.

HISTORY.

>> ONE OF THE REASONS THAT SENIORS TELL ME THAT, YOU KNOW, IF THEY ARE SAVING THEIR MONEY AND NOT SPENDING IT AND NOT PASSING IT ON IS BECAUSE OF THE COST OF ELDER CARE IN THIS COUNTRY IS SO UNATTAINABLE FOR SO MANY PEOPLE.

A RECENT "WASHINGTON POST" ANALYSIS FOUND THAT THE MEDIAN AMERICAN SPENT $19,179 OUT OF CARE.

ONE SPENT MORE THAN 50,000, AND ONE IN 20 SPENT NOR THAN $100,000.

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THE ELDERLY ARE JUST HOLDING ON TO THAT MONEY KNOWING THAT THEY'RE GOING TO NEED IT TO AGE COMFORTABLY IN THESE LAST YEARS?

>> IT'S NOT JUST POSSIBLE, IT'S DEFINITE.

BECAUSE WE KNOW FROM STUDIES THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S SCARY TO GET OLD.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE SCARY BECAUSE DEATH IS SCARY.

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE JUST DON'T KNOW HOW EXPENSIVE IT'S GOING TO BE.

AND ABOVE ALL, FOR HOW LONG THEY'RE GOING TO NEED FUNDS.

BUT WE SHOULD ALSO BE HONEST.

THERE ARE A LOT OF RICH OLD PEOPLE FOR WHOM THIS AMOUNTS YOU CITED AREN'T A LOT.

AND THEN THERE ARE THOSE WHO REASONABLY EXPECT THE KIND OF WELFARE STATE THAT EUROPEANS HAVE WHERE LONG-TERM CARE IS COVERED.

AND, YOU KNOW WE SHOULD TAX THE FIRST GROUP.

AND TO THE SECOND GROUP, WE SHOULD SAY COME WITH US AND BUILD AN AMERICA IN WHICH YOU DON'T HAVE TO FEAR GETTING OLDER AND NOT BEING ABLE TO AFFORD JUST THE BASIC DECENCIES OF LIFE.

>> LET'S TALK A BIT ABOUT ECONOMIC ACCESS TO CAPITAL AND HOW MONEY AND JOBS BREAKS DOWN IN AMERICA.

YOU'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW THERE ARE -- THE SEATS ARE TOP HEAVY WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE OLDER AND JUST AREN'T GETTING OUT OF THE WAY.

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?

>> WELL, THE POINT OF BUSINESS IS INNOVATION, TO FACE CHANGING MARKET CONDITIONS.

AND IT'S ASTONISHING THAT CORPORATE LEADERSHIP OUTSIDE SILICON VALLEY HAS BEEN AGING RAPIDLY, INCLUDING IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.

AND A STUDY HAS SHOWN THAT WHEN THE OLD MAN FINALLY RETIRES, THE STOCK PRICE OF BUSINESS -- A BUSINESS GOES UP, WHEREAS WHEN A YOUNGER LEADER DIES UNEXPECTEDLY, IT GOES DOWN.

AND SO THE MARKET IS IN A SENSE ITSELF TELLING US THAT THERE ARE LIABILITIES TO OLDER PEOPLE WHO PERPETUATE THEMSELVES IN POWER AT THE APEX OF THEIR ORGANIZATIONS.

IT'S NOT JUST SUPREME COURT JUSTICES.

IT'S THOSE WHO RULE EVERY ORGANIZATION IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND SO I THINK THERE TOO YOU HAVE YOUNGER FOLKS AND BUSINESS WAITING AROUND, WAITING FOR THEIR TURN AND WAITING TOO LONG BECAUSE WE'VE ABOLISHED MANDATORY RETIREMENT AND SAID WE DON'T THINK THE RISK OF PEOPLE AGING IN THEIR POSITIONS IS SERIOUS.

BUT IT IS.

>> BUT THEY SORT OF PUT CONSTRAINTS ON YOUR CRITIQUE HERE THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WHITE COLLAR EXECUTIVE -- >> ABSOLUTELY.

>> WORK.

BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN AMERICA WHO CANNOT AFFORD TO RETIRE.

I MEAN, THAT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CRISIS.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF ELDER PEOPLE WORKING JOBS THAT ARE JUST MINIMUM WAGE OR BETTER.

>> EXACTLY, OR WORSE.

THE POVERTY RATE FOR OLDER AMERICANS IS NO WORSE THAN ANYONE ELSE'S.

AND IT'S FAR BETTER THAN THE POVERTY RATE OF CHILDREN, IN PART BECAUSE WE HAVE A SYSTEM THAT ALWAYS PRESERVES ELDER BENEFITS, BUT IS WILLING LIKE IN DONALD TRUMP'S ONE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL TO CUT AID FOR POOR CHILDREN.

BUT YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WE SHOULD HELP THOSE AGING AMERICANS WHO NEED HELP EVEN MORE THAN WE DO NOW.

THE QUESTION IS ABOUT WHO HAS POWER.

AND THERE WE CAN SEE THAT IT'S ALSO THE AGING WHO HAVE DISPROPORTIONATELY MORE I WOULD ARGUE TOO MUCH.

SO THE CHALLENGE IS TO DEAL WITH BOTH PROBLEMS AT ONCE, BUT IT'S VERY DOABLE.

>> OKAY.

SO WHAT ARE THE MOST PRACTICAL SOLUTIONS HERE?

YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT TRYING TO INCREASE YOUTH REPUTATION.

YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT MANDATORY LIMITS ON CERTAIN TYPES OF JOBS.

WHAT ARE THINGS THAT WE COULD ACTUALLY POLITICALLY DO TO TRY TO FIX THIS?

>> WELL, I'LL JUST MENTION HOUSING, BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T TALKED A LOT ABOUT IT.

BUT WE DO NEED TO BREAK THE STRANGLEHOLD OF OLDER PEOPLE ON THE HOUSING STOCK.

AND I THINK THE MOST FEASIBLE WAY, AND IT'S VERY REASONABLE IS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TOE MAKE LAND USE DECISIONS OUTSIDE THE LOCAL LEVEL, WHICH ARE SADLY CONTROLLED BY OLDER PEOPLE GOING TO THE RELEVANT MEETINGS.

AND THE SAD THING IS THE RESULTS ARE THAT NEW BUILDING IS BLOCKED EVEN FOR SENIOR APPROPRIATE HOUSING.

SO IF WE DID BELIEVE THAT NOT JUST YOUNGER PEOPLE DESERVE A FAIR SHOT AT THEIR OWN HOME, BUT THAT OLDER PEOPLE DESERVE SENIOR APPROPRIATE HOUSING, WHETHER IT'S STATE-BUILT OR PRIVATELY BUILT, WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE'S MORE HOUSING BUILT IN THE FIRST PLACE THAT'S APPROPRIATE FOR FOLKS OF ALL AGES.

I ALSO THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE CONTROVERSIAL, BUT RELAXING OUR IMMIGRATION RESTRICTIONISM, WHICH HAS SURGED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES IS A MUST.

ACTUALLY, IT TURNS OUT THAT OLDER VOTERS ARE MOST IN FAVOR OF IMMIGRATION CONTROLS, AND YET THEY'RE THE ONES WHO MIGHT BENEFIT THE MOST FROM MORE AMERICANS BECAUSE WHO'S GOING TO WORK TO PAY FOR THEIR SOCIAL SECURITY, AND WHO'S GOING TO DO THE WORK OF CARING FOR THEM BUT IMMIGRANTS.

AND SO THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF HOW THERE ARE EASILY AVAILABLE FIXES THAT OUGHT NOT TO BE A HARD SELL.

IT'S JUST THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE POLITICIANS TO VOICE THE NEED FOR THEM.

AND WHY IS THAT?

WELL, THAT TAKES US BACK TO THE AGE OF OUR POLITICIANS, I'M AFRAID.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "GERONTOCRACY IN AMERICA."

AUTHOR SAMUEL MOYN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> INTERESTING POINTS.

>>> AND FINALLY, THE WIND REVERBERATING AROUND THE WORLD THIS WEEK.

ENDING ONE OF THE LONGEST DROUGHTS IN SPORTS HISTORY AND BREAKING AN IRISH CURSE.

THE PEOPLE OF COUNTY MAYO IN THE WEST OF IRELAND ARE CELEBRATING VICTORY IN THE ALL IRELAND GALLIC CHAMPIONSHIP AFTER WAITING 75 YEARS TO LIFT THE TROPHY.

JUST LOOK AT THE SCENES OF JUBILATION.

>> ABOUT TO BE HEARD ALL OVER THE WORLD.

THIS IS SENSATIONAL!

THIS IS MIND-BOGGLING.

THIS IS A POINT!

75 YEARS OF HEARTBREAK ARE ABOUT TO END.

1936, 1950, 1951.

AND SURELY NOW 2026.

LISTEN TO THE ROAR, 75 YEARS OF HEARTBREAK IS OVER!

[ CHEERING ] MAYO ARE SENIOR FOOTBALL CHAMPIONS, 2026.

>> IT REALLY MATTERS.

AN AMATEUR SPORT, NO LESS.

THESE PLAYERS DON'T GET PAID.

AMERICAN VIEWERS WILL HAVE HEARD OF THE BOSTON RED SOCK CURSE, OF THE BAMBINO FINALLY BROKE IN 2004, OR THE CHICAGO CUBS CURSE OF THE BILLY GOAT WHICH LASTED 71 YEARS.

WELL, FOLKLORE SAYS MAYO WERE CURSED BY AN IRISH PRIEST IN 1951.

THEIR WIN NOW HAS BEEN VIEWED TENS OF MILLIONS OF TIMES, WINNING CONGRATULATIONS FROM JOE BIDEN, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER MARK CARNEY, AND THE BAND OASIS, ALL SONS OF MAYO.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.COM/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.